Am I in the incest minority?
Posted by Trent on July 22, 2008
Today I started reading Marc Hauser’s book on the history and theories behind modern morality, Moral Minds. I have been on this kick recently (I just finished Can We Be Good Without God, for example). I want to know why we are the way we are and how much or little does it have to do with religion.
In one of the sections the author asks us to rank to situations on a disgusting scale (1 being normal and 10 being incredibly disgusting). The first first scenario involved a guy walking into a bathroom only to find his mom sitting there licking ice cream off the toilet seat and she turns up to you and says “do you want some.” Now, I thought that was a little weird but still funny and harmless so I gave that a 6. Interestingly enough, the author gave it a 6 as well.
The next story involved a brother and a sister. She is on the pill and he has had a vasectomy so there is no chance for a kid. They just engaged in a very sensual sex act and have confessed their love for each other. The author gave it an 8 and goes on to explain the history of the incest taboo in our culture. I was happy that the two of them had found love and knew there were no health questions with kids so I gave the situation a 3.
I guess the question is: am I in the complete minority here? Am I a weirdo? I can tell you I have no desire to have sex with my sister. I know we do not like incest in this culture, but I guess its hard to find love so why deny it if it’s there. I think father/daughter incest is a different issue and I don’t agree with that. Let me know what you all think. If I’m crazy, I’d like to know… haha, cheers.
Anonymous said
Why would you accept brother/sister love but not father/daughter love? Your words, “it’s hard to find love so why deny it if it’s there” apply just as much to a father/daughter in love as to a brother/sister relationship…so what is your basis for differentiating?
Anonymous said
Why is it not showing up that I left a comment?
Trent said
You have a very good point there. I actually made the distinction because someone asked me about father/daughter while I was telling them about the book but before I wrote the post. I had not even thought of it before.
Genetically, I think the relationship between a parent and a child is tighter. Obviously, I do not have a back ground in genetics but the off-spring has half the DNA of its father and half of its mother right? With regards to siblings, they may have the same mother and father but exactly which traits were carried on, and how, could vary from off-spring to off-spring and therefore the genetic connection is weaker. That is at least my rationale.
Secondly, I think there is an innate power structure already in place with a parent/child relationship. They are raised to learn parents have control and must be obeyed. Given that, I would believe the evenness of love and trust could be a little biased and swayed and therefore not the healthiest of relationships. The ethical issues seem to go beyond biology but into power dynamics and the abuse or misuse of them, in my opinion at least.
The incest issue in and of itself is not something I seriously considered until a few days ago so please let me know what you think. It could be that I have no defensible reason for my bias and need to think harder about the issue.
Thanks for your post! (Is the one posted now the one you couldn’t see earlier? I’m still not sure about how the posts work.)
Anonymous said
Yes, the earlier post decided to show up!
You have raised several interesting points. I think the first of which is, your feeling of “okay-ness” between the brother and sister in the book arose mostly due to the fact that they were unable to have children together. This leads to some other questions for you. Would you feel equally undisturbed about two brothers having an incestuous relationship? They are also unable to produce children. And if you are willing to bar siblings from having children on account of potential birth defects, are you also willing to deny a non-related couple who carry other “defects” (anemia, schizophrenia, etc) the opportunity to reproduce?
The couple in this article (http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,540831,00.html) have had four children together. But is this true love? The sister is admittedly mentally slow. How can she make her own choices, free from the “power” her brother may wield, any differently than a daughter who thinks she is just obeying her father? I argue that brother-sister relationships are subject to just as many control issues as a parent-child relationship. Just consider the many facets of birth order and the effect it has on child personalities.
Another interesting piece of information I found when I was doing some reading-up is the Westermarck effect, which is a reduced sexual desire between siblings who are raised together; a reverse-imprinting of sexuality, if you will. There is also such a thing as Genetic Sexual Attraction, found between siblings (typically adults) who were not raised together. People tend to find others with similar features to their own more attractive, and this is especially exaggerated among siblings who meet for the first time as adults. I ask you: is that, then, REALLY true love? I seriously doubt it. Thus I disagree strongly with your statement that since love is hard to find, it should not be denied. If siblings meet as adults, experience GSA, and begin a relationship claiming to be in love, I would argue that the relationship is still wrong, as they are under the influence of a strong genetic pull (not to mention the basic familial, but NOT sexual, love between family members) rather than true emotions of sexual, romantic love.
Here is another article I found of interest: http://www.guardian.co.uk/Archive/Article/0,4273,4331603,00.html
I eagerly await your thoughts on this topic, as it is much more complex than I originally believed!
lilyseye said
Very interesting articles and the question “is that REALLY true love?” is certainly pertinent. The brother himself stated that their relationship was “normal” until their mother died. Clearly, a traumatic event was what threw them together and caused them to look for comfort of a more intimate (ie. sexual) kind. Would they have “fallen in love” otherwise? And certainly love wasn’t “hard to find” for him — he moved from an engagement to an incestuous affair rather quickly. I think it was a combination of convenience and trauma — and I think that that combo is what leads to many, if not most, consenting incestuous relationships.
(Not to mention the facts in this particular case that the guy not only began a relationship with his mentally slow sister, but one who was also under the age of 18, 7 years his junior. There is most assuredly a power/control aspect there, as the commenter above has already pointed out is possible between brothers and sisters)
Trent said
Wow! You’re right, this is a very complex issue. My best argument is probably simply the fact that I do not have a close relationship with my sister so I cannot put myself in the perspective of having sex with a sibling. I am ignorant so I need to find a way to view the issue through that lens. I guess my first question back is what is your stance on the issue itself? I can’t get a strong read on where you stand given your tactics. For example, I cannot tell if you disagree with my position or simply disagree with the way I defend the position. I love your counter arguments with regards to the genetic reasons (i.e. if we use that as a reason than that is quasi-eugenics. Good point. Also, I had not thought about the power relations inherent in birth order and child personalities, again very interesting!) But I still don’t know where you stand on the issue and why. That might help our conversation and help me figure out where to stand.
I like that you asked if I would feel differently about two brothers engaging in this. I like that because my first analogy for this issue, and our culture’s stance, was homophobia. I am not a gay man so I do not claim to speak for gay culture but I do recognize a bias towards heteronormative ideals. At one point, I think we can agree that homosexual behavior was taboo and has had to work to gain acceptance in our culture. I strongly support gay rights. Incest is taboo, but that doesn’t mean they should be denied their actions. Do you think that is a fair analogy? I asked a friend who does not have a problem with incest (I wish there were a better word for this; one without the negative connotations) and he brought up the idea of bondage. It’s not normal but that doesn’t mean they shouldn’t be allowed to do it.
I’m glad you sent me these articles. I didn’t realize how real this idea actually is. When the author asked the first question I just assumed it was hypothetical to illustrate our incest taboo; I didn’t realize it actually happens. Given that, I hold stronger to my stance; again, for the same reasons I support gay rights. It’s not important whether people agree with it or not. What is important is that these people want to do it and there is not a strong enough reason to deny it. The articles almost come to their aid, bringing the debate to worldwide attention.
The Westermarck idea is also something very interesting! I had thought of that fact; what if they didn’t even know they were siblings or something like that. Love is also hard to categorize and almost undefinable. What if it is some sort of attraction to genetic similarities in another? I don’t know if I agree with that, but it’s a possibility. Either way, I like all the counter-arguments that you present. And I don’t think I can refute them, but maybe that is the point. I’m sure we can find caveats and mistakes in every issue. I guess the meta issue is whether we can deny freedom.
This is the original quotation from the book that I gave a 3 on the scale. I’ll just show where I started thinking and we’ll go from there:
“A brother and sister are on vacation together and decide that to enrich their wonderful relationship they should make love. Since he has been vasectomized and she is on the Pill, there is no risk of pregnancy. They make passionate love and it is a wonderful experience for both. They keep this as their secret, something they will always remember and cherish.”
So it is not exactly an incestuous relationship but a moment of their lives. That is what I thought was not very disgusting.
Anonymous said
Lilyseye, I completely agree with the points you made in your last post.
My stance is completely anti-incest, in any and every situation. According to Freud, there are only TWO universal taboos: incest and patricide. The fact that incest is not accepted consistently around the globe in every culture points to the conclusion that it is just not ok. Six billion people can’t be that far off the mark, can they?
Besides, I think incest laws are in place because some people are unable to make the right/wrong determination for themselves. You say “what is important is that these people want to do it.” I refer again to the article about the brother and sister with 4 children. Theirs is not an uncommon story. I just wonder what other factors are at play among those who are engaged in incestuous relationships, and whether “wanting to do it” is actually a confused interpretation of some OTHER emotion, such as gratitude, or familial love, or consolation during a time of need. I don’t know the answer to that.
Your points about homosexuality and bondage are valid, but these are on a different plane than incest, at least I believe so. Choosing to have gay sex or engaging in bondage is about the physical acts (not necessarily who you do them with), whereas choosing to have an incestuous relationship is about being with another person who is related to you, and less about the physical acts. I think it is that distinction that makes the case for me. For instance, I considered my views on other things that make me say “yuck” (certain sexual activities) and while I would never in a million years be ok with them, I don’t have a problem if other people wish to engage in them. However, when I tried to apply that feeling to incest, I absolutely could not say that I would ever feel incest is “ok” if someone wants to do it in the privacy of their home. So, I have no references to back me up here, but my personal feeling is that incest is different than other sexual preferences, and just plain wrong. I don’t care what kind of sexually deviant activities you engage in…as long as they aren’t with your brother/sister/father/mother/cousin! Here is an interesting article about whether incest and gay sex are on the same level though: http://www.slate.com/id/2081904/
Trent said
Anonymous, I think it is time that I conceded defeat. Although, I’m not sure if quoting Freud was a strong move… this is the guy that thinks all men want to have sex with their mothers and want to kill their fathers out of penis envy. And it is not until we develop a superego that we are able to control our deepest desires. You know he took those theories literally right?
But you are right to say many cultures look at incest as a taboo, including ours. (I am hesitant to say ALL simply because we’ll never know.) My original question was asking if I was in the incest minority and I think we can both now safely say the answer is an overwhelming yes. I never had thought of the issue seriously enough to have a position but I think I have exhausted all plausible avenues of condoning it. Again, thank you for including the latest article link. Not only because the comments echo the same conversation we are having here, but also because the author details the exact position I held: that it is gross and I wouldn’t think of engaging in it but, at the same time, it is hard to pinpoint an exact legal reason to ban it.
My hunch is that an evolutionary biologist would see this as a case of survival of the strongest, best organism. As a species, we know this is not the best option of procreation and therefore have been hardwired over millions of years to despise it- cross cultures and worldwide. (Same sex relationships cannot procreate so ‘no harm, no foul’ in an evolutionary sense I guess.) Maybe someday the taboo status will be lifted but I do not see that in the near future.
I like defending minority positions on most matters but I think here the numbers simply stack too heavily against me. I need to change my stance if only to not be viewed as sick, wouldn’t be the first time. I’m not exactly saying I’m wrong, but, right now, you’re right. It has been a pleasure having an intelligent debate with you. I hope you continue to read my columns and hopefully I will have the opportunity to communicate with you again, if only through electronic debate.
Thank you for the exciting, if so ever brief, engagement and…
you win.
Anonymous said
My goal was not to win, or lose. You are certainly welcome to your opinion, and my stance is entirely based on my own opinion, be that right or wrong. You are absolutely correct though about where the legal boundary is. Just because I think it’s wrong and you don’t think it’s as wrong, does that mean it should be illegal? I don’t know the answer to that, and apparently, neither do most of the experts!
Thank you for your interesting post…I have not had an intelligent, philosophical debate in a long time! I must say you did challenge me to clearly define my stance as well as force me to examine my reasoning from an objective standpoint. I admit to being generally narrow-minded and judgmental, so take that into consideration when reading my posts. I will list those traits as advance warnings in the future!